Bill's 1 Ton TJ Build

[Bill3753]

So, I feel like every time I wheel my Dana 30 it I've got a ticking time bomb under me due to the extra horse power and torque I'm laying down with the supercharger.  Anyways, this is what I am thinking.

Dana HP60 Front - Stock w/ 4.10 Gears
Sterling 10.25 Rear - Stock w/ 4.10 Gears (Welded?  If I do that I would put a Detroit in it latter on)
Military H1 Double Beadlocks w/ 7” backspacing
Military 37" Goodyears

Obviously, what started me looking was wanting to upgrade to a stronger front end and 35's.  I'm looking at the combo above because I honestly think it will be more cost effective.  I found a HP60 Kingpin front for $500 with 4.10's.  The same guy wants $200 for the matching 4.10 Sterling rear.  The axles are in running condition.  So, for much less than the cost of a D30 Front Hub Conversion and Chromo's or HP44 with Chromo’s/truss and brackets, I can have 1 ton axles.   I’ll still need the brackets for the HP60, but that is still less than the cost of chromo axles, brackets and a truss for the HP44.

Then there is the tires and rims to consider.  If I go with a HP44 Front with chromo axles, I would need new wheels and wheel spacers for the rear to match the width of the HP44.  I found the H1 double beadlocks with the PVC inserts for $75 each.  Also, the H1 rims run a large offset, so I can run the axles full width and still keep almost the entire tire under my 7” flares.  I would use these wheels regardless of where I go with this build because they are a DOT legal double beadlock.  Using a HP44 full width would still require the offset anyways.   The 37” Military rubber cost $75.00 a tire as well which to me is much less then I would pay for 35’s.

So basically, this is what I am thinking in a nutshell.  Buying a HP60/10.25 Rear, H1 Rims, and 37’s will be less than building up my Dana 30, building a HP30, or building a HP44 because I wouldn’t be buying hub conversions or chromo axles.  Also, the military 37’s will be way less than 35’s.  The other good thing about this route is I could then sell my locked D44 rear, part out the D30, and sell my current rim/tire combo to help recover some of the cost.

I’m looking for and open to thoughts and ideas?  Is this a bad idea?  Ed, I already know that two days ago I said I didn’t want more then 35’s, but those 37’s are a heck of a deal.  Also, the built HP30 I found sold.

[RnnngTrails]

What lift are you running? I'm running a Rock Krawler 5.5" Long Arm kit with 35" tires and Dana 44's and even with the Gen Right Tube Fenders in the front, I still can rub them on the inner fender when I'm at full flex. Nothing terrible, just tread on fender.. But from looking at your avatar, you're also going to need to consider new fenders / cutting yours to clear 37" tires. Food for thought...

I didn't see a "Members Rig" section for your Jeep so I dont exactly know what's been done to yours.. Forgive me if I'm wrong about this.

[Flex]

when doing this i would consider doing the suspension also, u dont need more lift u just need to more room. Other than that i think this is a great idea, its a good thing i agree bc its the same thing im going on a 91 Comanche and that project is nearing completion.

[Bill3753]

I was looking on pirate4x4 and there is a whole thread for TJ's with small lifts and bigger tires.  For now, I was thinking put the axles under it and get it going.  I'll flex it on base with one of the lifts and mark where it is hitting.  I have a 4.5" lift and 1.5" body lift.  From what I saw on pirate, bump stops and some cutting and it can be done with that much lift and cut stock fenders..  Yes, there was a bunch of the guys running high line fenders and stretched to 103"+ wheelbase, but there was also ones going with a very streetable set up with minimal lift on a stock wheel base.  They all had full width axles with 7" TJ flares to cover it up then a big offset wheel to bring it back under.  I already have the 7" Flares.  Some cutting and moving stuff around a little and I think it would be great on the trail.

I figured I would get the axles under it, steering rigged up and flex it.  Find all the pinch points, binding spots, and rubbing areas.  Cut as needed.  I don't mind cutting the fenders some to get some travel out of it.  I can run bump stops to take care of the rest when I can build some highline tube fenders.  Heck, right now I'm running doubled up stock bump stops in the front.  I didn't set it up that way.  It was the previous owner’s stupidity.  I already have WAY more bump stop then I need.  I guess I can cut those down too until I get it so the tires tuck up in nice.

I just honestly think I can go HP60/Sterling 10.25 and 37's cheaper then I can go built D30 or HP44 with 35's.  It’s very tempting and the more I think about it the more I want to do it.

Only thing I have not done before with this kind of project is install the TJ brackets on axles.  I can weld just fine.  Just slightly worried about getting it set up right.  From what I have read it isn't too bad of a job, just takes time.

Oh, I also did a little math on it as far as the width is concerned.  The stock TJ Dana 30 is 60.5” WMS to WMS.  The Ford Dana HP60 is 69.25” WMS to WMS.  So that is 8.75 differences.  Currently, I am running wheels with very little offset.  I don’t know what they are exactly as the previous owner put them on, but the stick our far.  Total width of the current Dana 30 with rims and tires installed is around 73” to 74”.  Now that is from the outside of the tire to outside of the other tire.  If I go with the H1 Beadlocks with a 7” backspacing, I will be looking at 69.25” for the axle, plus about 2” per side (roughly, not including tire sidewall).  That it 73.25”.  Add in the tire/sidewall sticking out and I will be right at or just a little over what I have now.  Just food for thought…

[skibum]

Just looking at the skids & rock sliders you built Im shure you can tackel this job. Can't wait to see what your going to do with that big chunk of 1/4 in plate for the tummy tucker. Wish I could give you some input but fab work is not something I do alot.

The combo your thinking about sounds great. Just do you research & take your time. Also are you still going to keep this as your daily driver? If so then I see your concern of welding the new brackets to the axels so it aligns correctly. If not your going to eat up thoes $75 tires very fast & DW is also the issue when alignment if out of wack. Again I feel you can handle a project like this. Just let me no on the steel you need because Im shure my buddy can get it for you.

I did not no that the H1 wheels were dubble beedlocks. Can I get a set of these for my JK with the correct off set after I put the 4.5 in lift on some day & what are the pro's & con's of running the H1 beedlocks??

[Flex]

Bill be sure u turn the knuckles back with this new axle or ur never going to have the correct caster and then u jeep will not track down the road properly.

[WillC]

H1 wheels. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746158

I thought about doing this to the JK but a 16.5 wheel limits tire choice.

[skibum]

Thanks for the input Will because I love the BFG KM2's & don't think they come in that rim size. Im shure just the outter beedlock will be fine but must be DOT legal. Will do my research when im ready to buy. But going dubble beedlock. Theres no such thing as overkill.

Not shure where I read this but herd that the Goodyear Mill spec tire is so stiff that it has very little flex even when aired down very low(8psi & less) so running this tire on a light jeep like the TJ compaired to the H1 that these tires were made for might not make it the best choice. I might be wrong on this one tho.

[kirksjeep]

Back when I did my axle swaps I also looked into this swap.  I was looking for my notes I made but the cons out weighed the pros when I listed it out.  Here is my pro/con list from memory ( over 2 years ago I looked into this)  When I listed out the costs of swapping in an 8.8 and polishing the D30 it was still a lot less $$$ then the D60/10.25 swap.  Don't under estimate the D30.  A majority of rigs that did the Ultimate Adventure ran the D30 with Chromo Shafts and 37's and none broke.  This is all just my 2 cents.

Pros:
Bullet proof axles
Full width- more stability (also a con see below).
Relatively Cheap to get axles from a JY.
Some write ups, so not starting from scatch.

Cons:
Requires custom front and rear drive shafts
New Rims
New Shocks-  stock won't support the extra weight of the axles
Adapting steering and brakes, plus still rear drum unlike an 8.8 swap.
Extra weight- loose the power to weight ratio that makes a Wrangler good off road
Full Width- won't fit on tight trails and will draw more attention from the po-po
Usually for trailered rigs
Will have to buy all the brakets and mounts for the axles

[Bill3753]

Also are you still going to keep this as your daily driver? If so then I see your concern of welding the new brackets to the axels so it aligns correctly.

I did not no that the H1 wheels were dubble beedlocks. Can I get a set of these for my JK with the correct off set after I put the 4.5 in lift on some day & what are the pro's & con's of running the H1 beedlocks??

I want to be able to use it like a driver, even if it is not.  Most I use it for current is driving 1/4 mile to work and back once and a while, then obviously to the trails.  I want to keep it a driver more then anything because in the summer time my wife and I plan to take the top off to cruise in it on weekends.  Then, randomly I drive it for a week or two everywhere just because I enjoy it.  The Focus we have gets around 40mpg highway though.  Hard to beat that.

You can get the H1 wheels recentered for any bolt pattern with any offset you want.  I've actually been told that the 4 door JK's do well with 6" of lift and 37's.  Might be worth looking into.  Even if you swap tires later on, for $75 each it gets you rolling on 37's and you wouldn't have a hard time selling them on craigslist if you decided you didn't like them.

Not shure where I read this but herd that the Goodyear Mill spec tire is so stiff that it has very little flex even when aired down very low(8psi & less) so running this tire on a light jeep like the TJ compaired to the H1 that these tires were made for might not make it the best choice. I might be wrong on this one tho.

People complain about them when compairing them to tires that run $300+ each.  Way I look at it is for $75 each it will get me going.  Who knows, I might even like them.  I saw a picture of a Ranger running them with the double beadlocks at about 4-5psi.  They looked like the had nice give to them at low psi.  I have read a ton of complaints though, but once again… for $75 each what you got to loose?

Bill be sure u turn the knuckles back with this new axle or ur never going to have the correct caster and then u jeep will not track down the road properly.

That is a concern of mine I don’t know the answer to yet.  To be honest, I was hoping being I’m running a small lift and swaping in a HP60 that has a much higher pinion shaft then my LP30 I wouldn’t need much of a pinion angle.  This should let me set my caster first the let the pinion angle fall where it is.  Time will tell and it probably will not work, but I will not know for sure until I get the D30 pulled and mock the HP60 housing under it.

Do you know what the stock pinion angle and caster is for an HP60?  That might let me figure out if I can make it work or not.

H1 wheels. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=746158

I thought about doing this to the JK but a 16.5 wheel limits tire choice.

Same place I will order the rims from.

[Bill3753]

Pros:
Bullet proof axles
Full width- more stability (also a con see below).
Relatively Cheap to get axles from a JY.
Some write ups, so not starting from scatch.

Cons:
Requires custom front and rear drive shafts
New Rims
New Shocks-  stock won't support the extra weight of the axles
Adapting steering and brakes, plus still rear drum unlike an 8.8 swap.
Extra weight- loose the power to weight ratio that makes a Wrangler good off road
Full Width- won't fit on tight trails and will draw more attention from the po-po
Usually for trailered rigs
Will have to buy all the brakets and mounts for the axles

Some of those I agree with and are exactly why I made this thread.  Others are valid points, but don't exactly apply to me 100%.  The weight is not a huge issue due to the supercharger.  If I have it figured right, the full width will not be much wider then I am now beacuse of the wheel offset I plan to use.

Currently, I'm running a D44 rear and D30 front.  Shocks, Steering, and brackets.  Those are the big issues you pointed out that I am concerned about as well.  All are possible, but will it make it not worth it in the long run?  I already would like beadlocks and 35's, but I can get the H1 beadlocks and 37's cheaper.  That is also one of the reasons I am starting to lean to the D60.

Another thought is if I build my D30, I am only putting money into it.  If I swap, I can part out the D30 and sell the D44 rear.  Both of those will help recover some of the cost.  I have seen D44's for TJ's go as much as $700-$800 with the locker type that I have installed.  That would pay for both the front and rear one tons I found.  Selling the 33's with Micky Thompson rims should just about cover the 37's and H1 rims.

I know that is really looking into deep, but just something I thought about.

You do bring up excellent points though.  

[Flex]

Bill be sure u turn the knuckles back with this new axle or ur never going to have the correct caster and then u jeep will not track down the road properly.

That is a concern of mine I don’t know the answer to yet.  To be honest, I was hoping being I’m running a small lift and swaping in a HP60 that has a much higher pinion shaft then my LP30 I wouldn’t need much of a pinion angle.  This should let me set my caster first the let the pinion angle fall where it is.  Time will tell and it probably will not work, but I will not know for sure until I get the D30 pulled and mock the HP60 housing under it.

Do you know what the stock pinion angle and caster is for an HP60?  That might let me figure out if I can make it work or not.

Pinion angle is not an issue, but i can tell u with out any doubt you will have to turn the knuckles back, but lucky for u i know and have all the equipment to do this, as far as stock caster on a HP60 it dosent matter, what matters is when ur all said and done it needs to be between 4-8 degrees

Let me add i deff. think this is the way to go at some point i will have to decide if i going to keep my jeep or build something knew if i keep it its going to get this same swap but with a 14 bolt instead of a 10.5 sterling this allows for more strenght and a narrowed rear which helps when slidding around corners, also ill be doing a 5 inch stretch.

[Bill3753]

I was originally looking at the 14 bolt for this.  Only reason I said the Sterling was I see them for sale frequently with the fronts as a combo package.  They have 35 spline axles and are very stout.  About the same as a 14 bolt or Dana 70 really.  Additionally, I read somewhere that they have about 2 inches more clearance then the 14 bolt.

That all together had me leaning to the Sterling.  If I find a 4.10 14 bolt for the right price, I would probably consider it.  It just depends on what is out there when I am ready to buy.

[skibum]

  A majority of rigs that did the Ultimate Adventure ran the D30 with Chromo Shafts and 37's and none broke.



 But im pretty shure none were running a Supercharged 4.0L & thats a lot of tork where talk'in about here Kirk.
 Standing next to that thing when the Supercharger spooled up on a hill at Deadfall sounded like it would have twisted up a beefed up D30 with 37" on it. I feel the smallest beefed up axel combo you could run on that SC Jeep is D44's & they still might brake over time & especially if ROCK is behind the wheel   Not that there is anything wrong with that driving style tho.

[gearhead1985B]

Dana HP60 Front - Stock w/ 4.10 Gears
Sterling 10.25 Rear - Stock w/ 4.10 Gears (Welded?  If I do that I would put a Detroit in it latter on)
Military H1 Double Beadlocks w/ 7” backspacing
Military 37" Goodyears

what are the specs on the 60 it sounds like a late model combo from a ford f350 and where are you finding the 37's at 

 I found a HP60 Kingpin front for $500 with 4.10's.  The same guy wants $200 for the matching 4.10 Sterling rear. 

are you willing to strap them to a pallet and hip them to illinios