JT4x4
The Mud Pit => Wrenching => Topic started by: BlacXJeep on August 07, 2009, 07:33:39 AM
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Ok so I got out at midnight last night, to find Black Betty dead. Shes got power, but tried jumping her anyways. She doesn't turn over whatsoever, and no click. I can hear the fuel pump turn on also, so I think I can rule that out. I also tried hitting the alternator and starter with a hammer, and nothing. So I'm thinking the diagnosis is either Neutral Safety switch or the starter, maybe CPS???. Tried wiggling the wires to the starter and the harnessing for the battery. I also unplugged the NSS connector in the engine compartment, no dice....
So if anyone has any ideas, or has a few hours this weekend to come out and try to figure this out it would be much appreciated. I'll buy you some beer or something. I haven't renewed my AAA so I can't get it towed unless I want to pay $90. Its in Mystic right off Jerry Brown rd.
Any ideas are welcome.
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did you try starting it in neutral?? how about jumping the wires at the starter?
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If it's the NSS you can normally start it in neutral or just jiggle the handle around a bunch and try it. Mine was doing that for the last year. Every now and then when I'd go to start it there would be absolutely nothing. I would just give the gear selector a couple slaps and it would start right up. I actually have a spare NSS at the house that I will sell sometime in the future. My plan was in rebuild it before taking the one out of my XJ so that my XJ wouldn't be down at all.
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From my experience with the CPS, it will not allow the engine to send a spark, but shouldn't stop the engine from turning over, so I wouldn't start with the CPS. Also my experience with starters is that they wear out over time, turn over slower and slower or intermitantly crank over, so my keyboarad diagnosis is not to focus on the starter. It could be the starter soleniod, but you usually will hear a click with them.
With that being said, I would go with the nuetral safety switch. Like Paul said, try it in nuetral. It's a $230 part new, and even with 10% military discount, it's still over $200 :(. If it turns out to be the nuetral safety switch, you might want to try a few bone yards that have a 90 day warranty.
Does anyone know a way of bypassing the switch?????
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it appears to have a starter motor relay. try swapping it with another relay 1st.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/flexj/cars/57470486.gif)
there doesn't seem to be any way to bypass the switch, it looks like the pcm takes the signal from the neutral safty. if you have to just run some wire to the starter and put the solenoid on a push button starter.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/flexj/cars/57470533.gif)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/flexj/cars/108710210.gif)
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Andy here is a link on how to bypass the NSS and how to rebuild it as well as where to buy a new one the cheapest. There is a ton of info here.
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351435&highlight=NSS
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Andy here is a link on how to bypass the NSS and how to rebuild it as well as where to buy a new one the cheapest. There is a ton of info here.
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351435&highlight=NSS
Andy, if you can bypass the NSS and it starts then you know that the NSS is the problem. I have the NSS pulled from the 88XJ at the house. As far as I know it works fine, but since it is already out it wouldn't be a bad idea to do the cleanup of it like what Kirk posted. We can clean it up and have it ready to go in so that the swap will only take a half hour or less. I got the second one because I read a lot about people breaking the plastic when removing and I didn't want to run the chance of breaking mine and not having a back up.
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did you try starting it in neutral?? how about jumping the wires at the starter?
I tried starting it in neutral and even tried pushing up on the selector lever in park, nothing. Don't know how to jump it from the starter, wouldn't you have to cut the wires?
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Andy here is a link on how to bypass the NSS and how to rebuild it as well as where to buy a new one the cheapest. There is a ton of info here.
http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?t=351435&highlight=NSS
Andy, if you can bypass the NSS and it starts then you know that the NSS is the problem. I have the NSS pulled from the 88XJ at the house. As far as I know it works fine, but since it is already out it wouldn't be a bad idea to do the cleanup of it like what Kirk posted. We can clean it up and have it ready to go in so that the swap will only take a half hour or less. I got the second one because I read a lot about people breaking the plastic when removing and I didn't want to run the chance of breaking mine and not having a back up.
I will try to bypass it at work tonight, I'm almost positive that's what it is because I hadn't had any issues with the starter and it seems odd that it would just abruptly stop working. I'll be posting online all night between trying to figure this out. If bypassing the NSS works I'll get a hold of you Roger. Thanks guys
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Ok so go to work and tried switching the starter relay with the accesory fan relay. Still nothing. So in a few hours I'm gonna pull the whole NSS switch out and clean it up and see if that doesnt fix it.
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Look for the BLACK plug (not the grey one being held);
(http://www.cherokeeforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4020&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1246050120)
Look for pin B and C on the same side and connect them together, this will bypass the NSS. You might get a code, but you'll know why. From what I have read all you need is a short peice of wire to make a jumper, after the Jeep starts, remove the jumper. Good Luck.
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Yeah I tried wiring that black plug together (B and C) that didnt work so I turned the key nto on position, put the car in park ran some heavy guage wire from the positive battery terminal to touch to the green wire from the starter. Guess what she started right up. So my brain is wracked now, does this mean its still the NSS? or does it mean its the starter solenoid??? ???
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Yeah I tried wiring that black plug together (B and C) that didnt work so I turned the key nto on position, put the car in park ran some heavy guage wire from the positive battery terminal to touch to the green wire from the starter. Guess what she started right up. So my brain is wracked now, does this mean its still the NSS? or does it mean its the starter solenoid??? ???
the solenoid will be good, because it started. you have an issue from the key to the starter. you may also have a bad ignition switch. you have to back probe the system starting with the ignition switch. follow the wiring diagram and do one compnent at a time. looking for power going in and power coming out. that will isolate the bad component.
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the solenoid will be good, because it started. you have an issue from the key to the starter. you may also have a bad ignition switch. you have to back probe the system starting with the ignition switch. follow the wiring diagram and do one compnent at a time. looking for power going in and power coming out. that will isolate the bad component.
Looking at the wiring diagram and reading what Andy did, it sounds like he bypassed the starter soleniod, so it could be bad. Since he swaped it with the Fan Relay I would guess the soleniod is not the problem.
Andy did you check all the fuses? It looks like fuse 8 (60A- at the distro block under the hood), and Fuse 18 (15A- also probably under the hood) and Fuse 3.
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the solenoid will be good, because it started. you have an issue from the key to the starter. you may also have a bad ignition switch. you have to back probe the system starting with the ignition switch. follow the wiring diagram and do one compnent at a time. looking for power going in and power coming out. that will isolate the bad component.
Looking at the wiring diagram and reading what Andy did, it sounds like he bypassed the starter soleniod, so it could be bad. Since he swaped it with the Fan Relay I would guess the soleniod is not the problem.
the solenoid is mounted directly to the starter. the relay is a different piece. andy here is the right diagram for your 93.
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/flexj/cars/41860211.gif)
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the solenoid is mounted directly to the starter. the relay is a different piece. andy here is the right diagram for your 93.
Your right, I was looking at the diagram too long ::).
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the solenoid is mounted directly to the starter. the relay is a different piece. andy here is the right diagram for your 93.
Your right, I was looking at the diagram too long ::).
don't feel bad, I want to color the pictures also (http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e82/flexj/stupid%20shit/poke.gif)
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ok so broke the NSS had to call Roger to come to the rescue with his extra from his old XJ. We couldnt get that one apart because the phillips heads were rusted and stripping out. so I slapped it on and she shifts fine. So this rules out the NSS. Paul thinks its in the ignition someweres, and I agree, but I'm going the lazy route and making a push button starter. Any suggestions of how I should wire it? Inline fuse etc?? yada yada. What a night. So for now I have to jump the starter everytime I want to go anywere. What a PITA!!!
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ok so broke the NSS had to call Roger to come to the rescue with his extra from his old XJ. We couldnt get that one apart because the phillips heads were rusted and stripping out. so I slapped it on and she shifts fine. So this rules out the NSS. Paul thinks its in the ignition someweres, and I agree, but I'm going the lazy route and making a push button starter. Any suggestions of how I should wire it? Inline fuse etc?? yada yada. What a night. So for now I have to jump the starter everytime I want to go anywere. What a PITA!!!
Just take the 20 min and figure out what the problem is. but if your going to wire it up on a button, do something cool, like the rocker switch for the power seat, or the rear washer switch. don't just throw in a button on the dash, use a jeep switch make it unique.
What power seat? and my rear wiper still works. I'm looking towards doing an aircraft style safety switch. It won't be OEM, but it will be better than putting two wires together inside my cab with sparks flying. It literally looks like I'm hot wiring my rig whenever I start it haha.
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I've seen the push button starters become popular with the tunner crowed, and I think Nissan even made them stock in a few newer cars.
This one is pretty expensive ($95), but it is pretty cool, and should give you an idea of what all is out there. Just try a google search.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HFM-PUSH-B/?image=large
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ok so broke the NSS had to call Roger to come to the rescue with his extra from his old XJ. We couldnt get that one apart because the phillips heads were rusted and stripping out. so I slapped it on and she shifts fine. So this rules out the NSS. Paul thinks its in the ignition someweres, and I agree, but I'm going the lazy route and making a push button starter. Any suggestions of how I should wire it? Inline fuse etc?? yada yada. What a night. So for now I have to jump the starter everytime I want to go anywere. What a PITA!!!
Just take the 20 min and figure out what the problem is. but if your going to wire it up on a button, do something cool, like the rocker switch for the power seat, or the rear washer switch. don't just throw in a button on the dash, use a jeep switch make it unique.
What power seat? and my rear wiper still works. I'm looking towards doing an aircraft style safety switch. It won't be OEM, but it will be better than putting two wires together inside my cab with sparks flying. It literally looks like I'm hot wiring my rig whenever I start it haha.
make sure it's a momentary push switch, and not a toggle. you wouldn't want the starter staying on by accident.
Good call Paul I will keep that in mind
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It's not going to be a full push button, the key will still have to be in the ignition. It will basically be a starter jumper button. Not going to do anything fancy. It will be a simple universal 12v horn button. like this.
(http://i25.tinypic.com/2lw3yas.gif)
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maybe I'll hide it somewere clever ;D
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maybe I'll hide it somewere clever ;D
put it in the gas cap.
Yeah cuz that would be convenient Paul?!!? No, I didn't get clever, just got it done, sick of holding two wires together. So here it is. Whatever you do just don't push the red button!!!
(http://i29.tinypic.com/296hn4y.jpg)
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As long as it's high enough that you don't hit it with your knee that your all set.
That should be out of the way and the ring around the push button looks to be raised enough that you won't be able to bump it on accident. That should work well.
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That should be out of the way and the ring around the push button looks to be raised enough that you won't be able to bump it on accident. That should work well.
You could tell people it's for the ejection seat and that way they never push it. ;) Looks good and nice choice with the ring, it should keep you from bumping into it.
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That should be out of the way and the ring around the push button looks to be raised enough that you won't be able to bump it on accident. That should work well.
You could tell people it's for the ejection seat and that way they never push it. ;) Looks good and nice choice with the ring, it should keep you from bumping into it.
Yeah thats what I figured with the ring around it it wouldn't be bumped as easily. It came out pretty decent, and it works, so thats whats important.