JT4x4
The Mud Pit => Wrenching => Topic started by: Swagger on February 18, 2011, 03:45:06 AM
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So, I'm sittin here thinkin. I've been looking into tires and Hi-fenders and such, and I'm starting to think, that for the price of 35's, i can just pay a little more fore 37's-40's. So then i start looking into diffs. Will a Ford 8.8 with chromos work on the rear for tires that big? And on the front, will D44 work? I really don't want to go with a D60 on the front. i just payed large for a 1-ton crossover steering kit from Off Road Only along with a FOX Stabilizer which will work on a D30 or D44. I would also definitely look into a 9" or a HP D60 for the rear, but the Ford 8.8 is of course the cheapest platform to start with. And also, who has the most complete TJ bracket set for those diff's. Throw it at me guys. build my rig. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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What kind of crossover steering? Are you using chevy 1 ton rod ends?
For the front, you will need lots of work to run your steering. That being said, depending on how you cut a full width down you can probably make your steering run on any of these, including a Dana 60. Here is why:
Option 1: Rubicon Dana 44 - To run 37's you will need to re-tube and truss this axle. Also, you’ll be pushing its limits with anything much over 37’s, maybe 38’s. Work here means cutting the knuckles off, sleeve the current tubes or replacing them with thicker tubes, pressing the knuckles back on, setting the caster, and finally welding the knuckles back in place. After all this, you'll probably want to run a truss and since you had to cut everything off to sleeve the axle and you'll need new brackets. That will get the axle ready to accept your choice of internals. For 37's, you'll defiantly want to run chromoly axles and a good quality U-Joint. I've heard good things about the CTM U-joints, but they are around $300.00 a set just for the joints. You'll need them to keep the joints from breaking though. Anything bigger like 38’s you’ll want RCV shafts and defiantly a cryo treated ring and pinion. The plus side here is you get an air locker from the start you can use and your steering will definably work. Downside is it takes a lot of work to make an already very expensive axle (easily the most expensive of all the options to buy just for the core axle to tear apart) run the tires you want reliably.
Option 2: Ford Dana HP44 - If you want to run a 44 front, this is probably your best option. You'll still be cutting the knuckles off to set the caster, but your end result will be a better axle. Here you will have two options though. Full width or narrow. If you decide to narrow it, the best option I have found is to cut the passenger side tube down to accept a factory length Early Bronco D44 shaft. I can't remember off the top of my head how much you need to cut here, but there are a bunch of build threads out there where people have done this. This will allow you to run an off the shelf shaft in the passenger side shaft from a Early Bronco and a 73-79 Ford truck shaft in the driver's side saving you from requiring custom shafts. The tubes on these axles for around ½†thick, so no sleeve is required. Plus, the high pinion design is stronger for the front. You’ll still need chromoly shafts and good joints to be reliable with 37’s, but you can probably manage 38’s on this set up without hurting it. Go to a cryo treated ring and pinion and throw in some RCV shafts and you’ll be set for 40’s. I’d personally avoid narrowing it and run it full width. Everything there is about the same as already mentioned, except you don’t need to cut it down. There are different options for a HP44 running full width though. The axle you’ll want is out of a 73-76 F150. These axles had the “C†wedges for the Ford radius arms welded on thereby allowing them to be cut off and used with TJ brackets with relative ease. 77-79 HP44’s from F150’s or 78-79 Bronco’s had these same wedges, but they are cast into the axle and very hard to remove without messing the whole thing up. It also makes it a pain to weld with more cast parts in the axle. All of these axles are around, 65†WMS to WMS which is only 4†wider then stock TJ’s. The other HP44 axle you can use is from a 73-79 F250. Problem with the axle is you’ll be at 69.25†WMS to WMS and you’ll have an 8x6.5 bolt pattern. Both are not a complete issue, but it is if you don’t want to run 8 lug axles or to be that wide. They can be converted to 5 lug patterns, but it can get costly. After all this you’ll still need a locker, or just weld it and call it good. Its going to be tough to keep your steering here without going custom on the shafts though.
Option 3: Ford HP60. This is what I chose. I don’t plan on doing into super detail here as you say you’re not interested, but work here is caster setting like the others, brackets, ect. Big 35 spline inners factory, so no chromoly axles for 37’s. Just a massive axle. If you change your mind, get a 78/79 F350 HP60 as the axle tube on the driver’s side is longer. This allows room to weld a coil spring pad on.
Option 4: Waggy 44. Personally, I would not use this axle. There are a bunch of people who do and who use it well, but if I am already going to put the time into the swap I want the high pinion front on the HP44. Plus it’s normally easier to find a HP44 for cheap. Waggy 44’s are a bit more from the start because it is close to a bolt in for YJ owners.
For the rear, there are just as many options. Sterling 10.25/10.50, 14 Bolt, Dana 60, Dana 70, heck even axles like the Jana 67 kit where you use Dana 70 internals in a Dana 60 housing. Problem here is you really need to figure out what you want in the front first. Reason here is mainly width and cost. If you decide to run a HP44 out of a F150 in the front, I would grab a Ford 9†out of the same truck for the rear. You’ll already be same with (actually slightly narrower in the rear but close enough) and already have the same lug pattern for the wheels. Both are a big plus when matching a set of axles to work together.
The other thing I would seriously consider is NOT basing your build off the steering you already have. For about 50-75 bucks you can get the DOM and another 20 for tube inserts. You can use this along with the ends you already have to build steering for any set up you want. East Coast Gear Supply sells a kit for $200.00 with all the rod ends, tube inserts, and DOM you need to build your own custom full crossover set up. Just something to think about when planning your build. I would build the axles you want then decide on steering.
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i agree with bill, when your talking about building an axle its going to be cheaper to build a dana 60 then it is to build a dana 44 up so that is good enough to handle 38+ tires. i know when i go to do another build im going straight to one tons there is no need to waste time and money building something your going to grow out of.
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ditto, straight to one tons, not worth doing all the work for a dana 44. do it right the first time
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I know people who can do the diff work for me, but what about custom axles? Am i going to be sending myself on a wild goose chase trying to find custom axles to fit a 50 or 60 whatever inch F250/350./.Ram/Chevy/Abrams/Space shuttle Dana 60? Not including the welding work (i can run a bead, no worries), how much of my hair am i going to pull out trying to build custom diffs? By the way, the 1-ton crossover system i am using is full after market from OffRoadOnly.com, called the "U-Turn System" with a FOX RACING SHOX stabilizer. Works like a charm. Back to the Diffs though. I have seen a lot of people lately on places like Pirate 4x4 talking about wheeling crazy crap like paragon and moab with HP30's in the front, locked with chromo's rollin36's and up. Are they high? or do they just caress the skinny pedal? None the less, i don't wanna go lower than a D44, but i'm not sure, skill wise, if i can handle the process of modifying a D60 for the front. I definitely know i dont want to pay for a RockJock assembly, as nice as they are, they are way over priced. Maybe I'm just going alittle out of my league with 38's/40's?
???
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And just to reiterate, the only reason i had discounted doing a dana 60 in the front, was because i already spent the money on a cross over steering set up, so i'd like to not do it again if i could, but i am still very open to suggestions. Also, i just ran across a deal for an 8.8 with 4.10's and a posi, and a matching set of 4.10's for my D30 along with a master install kit. Hes asking 250. I'm trying to convince my wife. So fro the time being, running 4.10 gears and rolling 33's, how much better/worse gas mileage would i get over stock gears w/33's. Hurry JT4x4, answer my many questions, so i can work on convincing my stubborn wife.
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I think you'll get better gas mileage with the 4.10 gears with 33s than your stock gears. It brings you closer to the factory specs with the tire size ratio to the gear ratio. I went with 4.56 gears and am running 33s, which causes higher RPMs on the highway, but when I go to 35s I expect my gas mileage to improve slightly.
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Dana 60 one ton's are a great axle but they are heavy, it all depends on how and where you want to use you jeep. I'm building up 44's because I don't plan on going any bigger than 35 - 36's and as much as i like the trails I also like to take the jeep around town with no top so a big heavy axle is not for me. if your planning on going to 38 - 40's then you may very well need 60's under you, especially if you drive anything remotely like me (with a heavy right foot).
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Well. Tis done. Tomorrow i take possession of (1) Ford 8.8" rear end from a 1999 explorer, with 4.10's, disc brakes, and the factory posi unit. In this deal i am also getting a new carrier, new 4.10 ring/pinion set and master install kit for my dana 30. All for $250. Not to bad, and i'm uber excited to get the beefy rear end under my rig so i can proceed with the next step. For brackets i am thinking about these from Ballistic Fabrication,
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/XJ--TJ-Jeep-Combo-Bracket-Upgrade-Kit--25-Axle-Tube-30-Mounting-Width_p_1838.html
I'm not certain yet, but after i do some measuring i'll know a little more about what i'm goin to need. If anyone has any specific recommendations, please feel free to share. after this i'm going to start prepping for a D44 upgrade at the front end. then comes the other goodies.
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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i know u just bought it but u should prob. know the ford 8.8 posi is a giant piece of junk. you would have been better of using an 8.8 with standard spider gears then swap in a Aussie for about $270.
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the posi wasnt actually the selling point. when the time is right, and the money is there, i'm actually going to stuff some flavor of selectable locker in it. Pricewise, i'm leaning towards the OX locker, but on the other hand, the general public definitely sings praises about the ARB air locker. dont know if i wanna drop damn near $1000 bucks on it. The base fact is i now have an 8.8 for my rig, which means i can now comfortably roll 35's or 36's. any one have any thoughts on those all in one brackets a previously posted up? ???
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the posi wasnt actually the selling point. when the time is right, and the money is there, i'm actually going to stuff some flavor of selectable locker in it. Pricewise, i'm leaning towards the OX locker, but on the other hand, the general public definitely sings praises about the ARB air locker. dont know if i wanna drop damn near $1000 bucks on it. The base fact is i now have an 8.8 for my rig, which means i can now comfortably roll 35's or 36's. any one have any thoughts on those all in one brackets a previously posted up? ???
From what I can tell from my own search, those are the best price for what you're getting. The 1/4" steel will most certainly hold up better than the 3/16" counterparts from Teraflex/etc. If you're good with a torch, I dont see why that wouldnt work for you.
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the posi wasnt actually the selling point. when the time is right, and the money is there, i'm actually going to stuff some flavor of selectable locker in it. Pricewise, i'm leaning towards the OX locker, but on the other hand, the general public definitely sings praises about the ARB air locker. dont know if i wanna drop damn near $1000 bucks on it. The base fact is i now have an 8.8 for my rig, which means i can now comfortably roll 35's or 36's. any one have any thoughts on those all in one brackets a previously posted up? ???
Those brackets you included in the link will not work. Those are for front axles. If you look at them, the spring perch is offset vice directly over the axle tube. If you use these in the rear, you will shorten your wheelbase with the offset for the sprint. Also, although that is a good price, it is not a complete kit with everything you will need to swap your rear in. If you went with something like that one, you would still need a rear track bar bracket and upper control arm brackets.
I would recommend using this kit:
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/97-06-Jeep-TJ-Rear-Bracket-Kit-p-16942.html
Teraflex also makes a kit, but its about double the price of this one.
To answer your front questions... Hands down if your going to run the 1/2 ton axle get a HP44. They are just about as good as a 1/2 ton front axle (aside from some of the crazy fabricated hybid axles) you can get. If you check forums you find these from time to time ready to bolt into a TJ from guys stepping up to a Dana 60. Last one I saw was in PA. The guy was selling the axle complete hub to hub locked, narrowed, and with chromoly axles and all the brackets already welded on for $1900.00.
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http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=945704&highlight=hp44
This was the add I was talking about. You see them from time to time. Another good place to check would be jeepforum.com on their classified section. You'll easily buy one like this far cheaper then you could build one.
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Well, dont i feel like a dumb ass. Maybe i should read the whole part description before, hmm.... sorry, shiny thing. Any ways, yes according to the research (what a joke!!!) that I've done, i agree with you bill, that kit does seem to be the most complete, and the best for the price.
I'm wondering though, because of the stock axles being as beefy as they are, should i even worry about spending the money on a Superior Super 88 kit. I know the differences between the lengths with and without that specific kit, but i will it matter? Just trying to figure out if this is an area i can save a little money on so i can put more $ towards a locker? And also, should i worry about doing a truss on it right away, or could i afford to wait until i revamp my lift kit, (pro-comp out, Clayton in). I'm trying to decide if i want to build in baby steps, or stockpile a bunch of parts until i reach a point where i can throw it all in at once a year or three down the road. and the only reason i mention it is to avoid the amount of rework i see myself creating. Suspension is going a completely different direction than where it is right now. Eventually im pushing to do a five inch rear stretch (clayton) back half kit to run shocks outboard of the frame (BTF), coil overs at all four corners (FOX, who else?) and channeled sections of the frame to run control arms parallel to the frame instead of below it, plus air bumps, hi-fenders, fuel cell, and all the other crap that goes with it. Yes i know, what i'm blabbing about is a boat load of cash, and a lot of chop, cut rebuild type of fab-work, that's not what scares me, its the possibility of modifying something, just to go and re modify it again to accept a new slew of parts. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
Bill, keep the comments coming. I like it when i spark a thought and you turn it around into something that will work. With the correct parts too!!! ;D ;D
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If you think you'd want it later, then get it the first time (at least for the internal parts of the axles). I'd do the Super 88 kit as the axles it comes with lets you set your wheel bolt pattern to either 4.5x5 or 5.5x5. If you go with a HP44 Front, it will be 5.5x5. This way you can run it at 4.5x5 now while you wheel your 30 front and will be set for later when you swap in the HP44. I'd also get whatever locker and gearing you want from the start. You can always cut off and replace brackets without much trouble, but it becomes much more costly to rework internal parts of your axle. On a different note, Ed runs Superior chromoly axles in his 8.8 with a Clayton 4 link and 33's on his TJ.
With that in mind, if you can afford it I'd go straight to the Clayton 5" Stretch but run it with stock type coil springs vice coil overs. Coil overs are awsome, but I don't feel the gains are worth the cost. Run it with coils, notch your frame to move the upper spring bucket back, and call it good. You might need a limiting strap on it, but you'll still perform great. Problem is the stretch is expensive. The core suspension kit isn't too bad, but when you add in the fuel cell and different corners you need to do it right the price gets up there quick.
You might consider a 4 link rear without a stretch. This will keep your cost a little lower. Later on you could sell the arms and swap them for longer ones to do the stretch. Might be the way to go. Heck, you might get it on there with the 4 link and not even worry about the stretch after that.
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The whole reason i was looking into the coilovers was ride comfort. Even while trying to build a super whamodine rig, i'm also using this thing as a daily driver. i figured that the added performance of a long travel set of C/O's would drastically improve highway ride without sacrificing any off road performance. Are they really that cost ineffective? As far as the super 88 kit goes, i am definitely working torwards that for my next major purchase. I do like the versatility of the kit and the strength that it offers.
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I think you'll get better gas mileage with the 4.10 gears with 33s than your stock gears. It brings you closer to the factory specs with the tire size ratio to the gear ratio. I went with 4.56 gears and am running 33s, which causes higher RPMs on the highway, but when I go to 35s I expect my gas mileage to improve slightly.
when i pcs'ed to florida driving my jeep i averaged 15-17 mpg with 33's and 4.10's
the posi wasnt actually the selling point. when the time is right, and the money is there, i'm actually going to stuff some flavor of selectable locker in it. Pricewise, i'm leaning towards the OX locker, but on the other hand, the general public definitely sings praises about the ARB air locker. dont know if i wanna drop damn near $1000 bucks on it. The base fact is i now have an 8.8 for my rig, which means i can now comfortably roll 35's or 36's. any one have any thoughts on those all in one brackets a previously posted up? ???
the ox lockers have an aluminum diff cover for the 8.8
The whole reason i was looking into the coilovers was ride comfort. Even while trying to build a super whamodine rig, i'm also using this thing as a daily driver. i figured that the added performance of a long travel set of C/O's would drastically improve highway ride without sacrificing any off road performance. Are they really that cost ineffective? As far as the super 88 kit goes, i am definitely working torwards that for my next major purchase. I do like the versatility of the kit and the strength that it offers.
when i was in florida i helped a guy fully link stretch and build his tj up to run 42's and it took us 15 different spring set ups to get this thing setting level and not to tall i will never run coil overs cause of that i will run ori struts
i will not tell you how to build your rig cause i am still fixing mine i am pleased with how it preforms but i know it can be better a lot better especaly the front end it will be 3 linked and stretched more
i decided to not drop any more money on my d44's other than a set of gears for the front i am now looking for a hp60 i can cut down to 63" and i am going to 4d's to hell with any thing else that is what i wanted when i looked into lifting my heep big so i am going for it and right now i have the room for them (and i got a used set of 40's sitting in the garage) just need the axles to match and a tow pig
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Swagger, you wheeled with me a few times when I had Bigyeller. Those were 37's and I never had a single issue. I ran the D30 front with Alloy USA shafts, locked, and an 8.8 with a Superior Axle kit, also locked. I had more problems with my Tom Woods drive shaft than anything else. I ended up putting in a Carolina Driveline shaft for $150 and never looked back. In the end I probably spent less money building those axles the way I wanted them instead of finding a set of 1 tons and modifying them, etc... I ran those axles stock with 3.73's with the 35's with no issues. I didn't upgrade them until I went to 37's. Just some food for thought. Go the route you want to go and what your pocketbook can handle! Good luck! ;) Justin
Edit: I also didn't really drive her like I stole her, either. I typically let the tires, suspension, and gears do all the work and only gave a lunge or heavy throttle when necessary. If you are more of a "Romp and Stomp" kind of dude, then just go ahead buy you some 1 tons.... ::)
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romp and stomp is super fun ;D
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romp and stomp is super fun ;D
I recently did plugs and O2 Sensors on my TJ. I'm exaggerating when I say easily double the power it had before. That supercharger kicks in quick and glues you to the seat.
Neadless to say... +1 on it being fun.
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romp and stomp is super fun ;D
I recently did plugs and O2 Sensors on my TJ. I'm exaggerating when I say easily double the power it had before. That supercharger kicks in quick and glues you to the seat.
Neadless to say... +1 on it being fun.
So im guessing you found that hesitation issue???
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No to steal from the core meaning of this thread, but yes. After I did the work I drove to Philly and back with zero issues. Its running great!
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Ah hem, as i take back possession of my thread...
Justin how the hell are ya man, thought you fell off the earth or something. Anyways. I couldnt remember if you were wheeilin a 30 or a 44, but now i know. If you could handle 37's on a d30, i'm sure i could. But you've seen me wheel, i'm not so tender footed. Plus, down here, as it is in Georgia, its more mud than anything. And anyone whos anyone knows that mudding is a high RPM event. Thats where my fear of grenading the front diff comes from.
On a different note, i think i settled on a wheel and tire combo finally. H1 beadlocks, and military surplus 37's. Trailworthyfab.com makes a couple of really nice sets for extremely fair prices. Alot cheaper than spyderlocks and pitbull rockers.
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Alright, i'm clueless as to where to find one of these. ??? I need a yoke for my Ford 8.8. Anyone know where i can find some high strenght models? dont need it right away, but will in the near future.
Additionaly, i'm trying to figuer out how to mate the parking brake linkage on the 8.8 to my stock TJ linkage. Axle, you could probably gimme some insight on this.
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http://jt4x4.com/smf/index.php?topic=186.0 (http://jt4x4.com/smf/index.php?topic=186.0)
Here you go, Kyle. This should be everything you need for the most part. It will at least give you an idea of how I did everything and the costs. You'll have to sort through it all, as it's 15 pages. Justin
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Ok, call me stupid or whatever, but, what are "king Pin's"? I know it is for the linkage of the steering knuckles to the inner C's of D60's. Are they just a different type or alternative to ball joints?
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yes they do the same thing as ball joints just put together differently and much stronger.
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k. thanks. i am now .00000000000082% smarter than i was before i asked that question. ;D
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Ok, call me stupid or whatever, but, what are "king Pin's"? I know it is for the linkage of the steering knuckles to the inner C's of D60's. Are they just a different type or alternative to ball joints?
should have just called you stupid ;D
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:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(. my feelings would be hurt now if i had any.
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Anybody have any actual, true blue, technical knowledge (not just JT4x4 tribal medicine man voodoo) and or experience with aftermarket coilovers /air shocks? i'm looking for the best one/combo/whatever for a mix of uses involving heavy street use, with mostly dirt trail and deep mud, with the occaisional rock and/or rocky trail in the midst.
I found these interesting. Ballistic says these are the best things since sliced bread, toupees, and Dr. Phil. ;D
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/NEW-Ballistic-Hybrid-CoiloverAir-Shock_p_1649.html
i know, there pricey. shut up about it. ;D are they streetable? what is? what isnt?
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Anybody have any actual, true blue, technical knowledge (not just JT4x4 tribal medicine man voodoo) and or experience with aftermarket coilovers /air shocks? i'm looking for the best one/combo/whatever for a mix of uses involving heavy street use, with mostly dirt trail and deep mud, with the occaisional rock and/or rocky trail in the midst.
I found these interesting. Ballistic says these are the best things since sliced bread, toupees, and Dr. Phil. ;D
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/NEW-Ballistic-Hybrid-CoiloverAir-Shock_p_1649.html
i know, there pricey. shut up about it. ;D are they streetable? what is? what isnt?
yes i helped set up a tj with some fox coil overs and it took 15 different spring combos to to get it right
what is wrong with JT4x4 tribal medicine man vodoo
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Anybody have any actual, true blue, technical knowledge (not just JT4x4 tribal medicine man voodoo) and or experience with aftermarket coilovers /air shocks? i'm looking for the best one/combo/whatever for a mix of uses involving heavy street use, with mostly dirt trail and deep mud, with the occaisional rock and/or rocky trail in the midst.
I found these interesting. Ballistic says these are the best things since sliced bread, toupees, and Dr. Phil. ;D
http://www.ballisticfabrication.com/NEW-Ballistic-Hybrid-CoiloverAir-Shock_p_1649.html
i know, there pricey. shut up about it. ;D are they streetable? what is? what isnt?
yes i helped set up a tj with some fox coil overs and it took 15 different spring combos to to get it right
what is wrong with JT4x4 tribal medicine man vodoo
Doesn't quite answer my questions about them being stereetable. I dont care about how much of a PITA they are to set up. I'm a bit more concerned with the finished product, i.e. ride quality, stability, and safety.
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i wouldn't go run air shocks if u want to drive on the street alot.
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No on the air shocks. Reasons why?
just wondering what running an air shock will do to street performance. And that air/coilover hybrid is a pretty beastly contraption, still no dice?
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never had them on a personal rig but what i have heard from lots of guys is with lots of fast cycling they will fade and dampening will change due to them heating up, this could also change ride height over a long trip due to the only thing holding your jeep up is the air shock it self.
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good to know.
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will a NV3500 bolt directly into a 2000 TJ? found one craigslist for $250.
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yes 95% sure
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yes 95% sure
X2 on that. Only thing you might need is a different trans mount.
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will my 231 bolt up, clocked correctly? or will i have to visit Advance Adapters to make that work?
who cares. prolly not gonna happen anyways. moneys tight right now.
progress on the 8.8 is moving at a slugs pace. barely got the old parts off of it. blah.
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I think the NV3550 has the same spline count as the AX15 & should bolt right up clocked corectly but I sugjest you do a little research on line just to make shure it will. The info is out there. You just need to fine it. I would help you but I suck at this computer shit. I could find it but it would take me A long time. Good luck.
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This is all together different from the transmission question, but still in line with your build...
If you want a cheap stretch when you swap that 8.8 in, you can use stock LJ arms in the rear to net you about 10" of stretch. To complete it you'll need to put fuel cell behind the rear seat (no one makes one to allow for that much stretch and still being able to keep it under the tub), notch the frame for new upper spring buckets, move the shock mounts, and get a longer drive shaft. Then, just do your comp cut like your already planning.
If your on a tight budget and want a stretch you'll never do it cheaper then that.